Erica Duecy: The Ramble

One of the most important content creators in the drinks biz takes a ramble with me

If you want an example of the career trajectory of a modern content editor and writer, look at Erica Duecy’s LinkedIn Page. Over the past two decades, she has been smack dab in the middle of the food/wine publishing industry’s migration to digital, often directing some of the most prominent and cutting-edge efforts to bring news, information, and education to the wine trade and consumers. What really sets her apart is her ability to spot talent. Wherever she has been editing wine and drinks-related content, she has sought out and spotlight genuine talent.

Most recently, Erica has gone out on her own in the form of her podcast, Business of Drinks. If you listen to this podcast, you immediately realize that she’s among the few journalists and content creators who has that extraordinarily keen sense of which issues are driving change and who in the industry best understands that change. Erica is, unquestionably, one of the most astute observers of the business of drinks in the United States. That’s why I wanted to take her on this Ramble with me and see what emerged.

This is a long interview primarily because Erica was so generous with her time and thoughts. We discuss a good deal here from podcasts, social media and wine writing to the changes in the industry, what’s driving that and what we need to be watching for and doing going forward.

This interview approach, “The Ramble”, begins with one question emailed to the subject. They respond in any way they choose, which in turn prompts my next question, and so on. It is a less formal way of conducting an interview, results in something a bit messier and rambling, but also produces something more interesting and authentic I think.

TOM: First, I’m grateful you agreed to do this ramble with me. Thank you.

You’ve been creating, curating, and editing content, primarily about beverages, for over two decades. Moreover, your work has largely been aimed at digital spaces. I’m thinking of your work with  Fodors, Saveur, VinePair, SevenFifty Daily, Pix, and now your Business of Drinks podcast. I note this digital emphasis of your career because I’ve been thinking about Full Pour Magazine. Lauren Buzzer’s fantastic quarterly publication all about drinks and the culture of drinks. But it’s primarily published in print, which seems purposely retro. It’s a business model that nearly guarantees an extraordinarily niche audience. I have thoughts on this approach, but I’m not the subject of this Ramble. From your perspective as one of the most experienced digital content professionals in the drinks business, how do you understand the role of print in today’s publishing and content world?

ERICA: I love print publications — magazines, newspapers, quarterlies, etc. I subscribe to many and even get the weekend edition of the New York Times. My morning ritual is drinking coffee while reading something on the printed page. It's much more gratifying than hopping onto a screen first thing.

Print was my first love, but I came up at a time of significant change in publishing, where the resources dedicated to print and digital essentially flip-flopped. I worked at several publications — Fodor's Travel, Saveur, Architectural Digest — where print editorial budgets were being slashed, and digital budgets were ballooning. That's where all the action was at. I was lucky to build and run some big digital editorial teams and create innovative new verticals and programs. 

That time (2000s to late 2010s) was the golden era of digital publishing. In the years since, dozens of digital-first publications have shuttered, and even the biggest print + digital players are struggling. Advertising models have cratered and many notable brands have been run into the ground by private equity mismanagement. 

But there are some bright spots! The old adage "riches in the niches" rings true at the moment. Full Pour — and niche publications in general — are finding dedicated communities of paying subscribers. The print format plays well in this area. It's excellent for brand building and brand loyalty — it has staying power. Receive it in the mail, and it feels like a gift. Put it on your coffee table, and it's a conversation piece. 

But print is not essential to the niche strategy — digital channels are ideal for building rabid fan bases, especially when you leverage community-building platforms like Slack. I'd point to Andrea Hernández and her newsletter Snaxshot as a great example. She covers emerging drinks and snacks brands and has more than 100,000 subscribers. 

And Yolo Intel, Yolanda Edwards' weekly travel newsletter, brings in $20K a month in subscriber revenue. It also spawned a gorgeous quarterly print edition, Yolo Journal. 

The keys to publishing success these days are more like: 1. Find white space for a niche audience. 2. Connect deeply with that audience, creating an obsessive on- and offline community. 3. Readjust your definition of revenue success — think in the thousands and tens of thousands; not the millions. Certainly, executing on the "niches" strategy is not easy, but that's where I see the most potential in our current publishing climate.

TOM: Damn! You’re smart, Erica. But I knew that. It’s just cool to see in on display. But speaking of “Golden Ages”….There’s the Podcast. As a format, it just seemed to explode onto the scene a few years ago, sort of like the Blog did around 2005/6. First, let’s talk about your view of the podcast vis a vis the wine industry. I have a bunch of questions. Is the explosion in podcasts a matter of the format becoming easier and less expensive to exploit? Do you think the niches in wine are currently being served? Why do you think your “Business of Drinks” podcast has done so well? 

ERICA: Definitely. Podcasting has gotten a lot easier and less expensive to produce over the past decade, continuing on the “democratization of publishing” trajectory. The channel has exploded much in the way blogs did, giving anyone a platform. And podcasts are so accessible — you can listen to them for free, and on more usage occasions than reading, like while driving, at the gym, etc.

There are wine podcasts for all interests, especially on the consumer side. On the trade side, I think Business of Drinks has resonated because it breaks fresh ground. There’s nothing else like it. We discuss challenging topics — talking with entrepreneurs about their actual revenue and margins, their investment challenges, and their failures, along with their successes. 

Our focus is on helping drinks businesses grow and thrive. Another thing that’s unique about us is that we share the strategies and insights that are working across categories — we cover wine, beer, spirits, non-alc, functional, and THC-infused drinks. 

We recognize that fresh ideas are likely to come from beyond your direct, competitive set. So, for example, a wine company getting inspired by an RTD brand’s growth campaign, or a liquid-to-lips program they hadn’t considered.

TOM: Walk us through the process of setting up a relatively professional podcast. I presume one doesn’t just hit Amazon up with a search for “The all-in-one Podcast set up”….Do you? I’m wondering about key equipment, environmental controls, key service providers. Also, is there a pathway to profitability in the podcast realm? 

ERICA: Right — there's a huge range of options for setting up a podcast. The sound quality and production levels were important to me, so I assembled a team of professionals to produce Business of Drinks. I work with a podcast editor, a producer, and a social media designer, as well as our on-air talent team. Our tech stack features Samson mics and headphones, Zencastr as the recording platform, Spotify for Podcasters as the publishing platform, Asana as the project management platform, and WhatsApp as the communication platform. 

Our on-air talent team is me, co-host Scott Rosenbaum, and a regular contributor, Caroline Lamb. We all work in different areas of the drinks industry, bringing a range of perspectives to the podcast. Our generational diversity — spanning Gen X to Gen Z — also leads to some interesting conversations, especially about the shifting role of alcohol in culture. 

Regarding profitability, there's a lot of sponsorship and partnership potential, though it requires significant follow-through. We've featured several advertisers, and are in discussions with a few companies at the moment, but sales require a continual drumbeat. In an ideal scenario, I'd have a dedicated fractional sales rep to help drive deals. Right now, it's just me. And I'm actively seeking advertisers, so interested companies, please reach out! 

TOM: Business of Drinks is very professionally produced. And, it’s for drinks professionals, though hardly just wine professionals as you’ve covered the business of all sorts of drinks. I want to draw you back into the wine world. Though I think the slowdown in sales is impacting all alcoholic drinks, the impact on wine seems at least as severe as all other drinks. Moreover, fine wine is at a bit of a disadvantage insofar as it can’t turn on a dime. It is vintage-based. First, give us your diagnosis of the American wine marketplace today. What’s impacting sales, negatively or positively? What systemic and societal trends are in play? Is this a dip in sales that will be corrected or is this a real correction that will leave the industry permanently changed?

ERICA: Wine is in trouble, especially with younger audiences. There are both product and marketing disconnects at play. Thankfully we don't need to look far to understand what's working in beverage alcohol — it's spirits and RTDs. Looking at IWSR category data, beer, and wine are losing volume and projected to continue declining through 2027. Meanwhile, spirits and RTDs show projected gains during that timeframe. The biggest growth is in RTDs, meaning ready-to-drink products, in cans, single-serve bottles, pouches, and cartons. These include cocktails and long drinks, hard seltzer, hard coffee and teas, hard kombucha, wine spritzers and coolers, and FABs (alcoholic sodas).

Right now, by volume, there are more RTDs being consumed every year than wine in the U.S. Think about that: This is a category that barely existed a decade ago — the fact that it has surpassed wine is truly astounding.

What do RTDs have that wine doesn’t? Three things: User-friendly formats, better price points, and a wider range of flavors. 

First, let’s tackle format. RTDs can go where 750 ml bottles cannot — concerts, beaches, parks, poolside, etc. They’re winning share from wine on usage occasions. With their convenient packaging, they give a clear answer to the question: How does this product fit into my life? And that answer is: Anywhere and everywhere. There is no special occasion, like we see for wine. RTDs work well for most occasions. The single-serve format also plays into health and wellness trends around moderation, portion control, and label transparency, with sugar and calorie counts clearly marked.

So the dominance of 750 ml bottles is one challenge for wine. That's actually where I see the most potential: Make more wine in cans. Cans represent one of the brightest spots in wine. Where other segments of wine are flat or down, canned wine is expected to grow at a CAGR topping 13% over the next decade, on its way from a $1 billion to a $4 billion market segment, per ISWR data. The audience for these products is largely Millennials and Gen Zs. In the survey I did last year of 1,300 Millennial and Gen Zs, about 20% of respondents already reported buying wine in cans. It fits into their lives in a very clear and tangible way — they can take canned wine along wherever they’re going.

Price points are also worth mentioning. Looking at the data from our survey, there was a pervasive sentiment that wine doesn’t offer much value for the money. In fact 75% of Gen Zs indicated that wine does not offer a good value compared to products like beer and hard seltzer. When you think about it, this makes sense for cash-strapped younger consumers. A single-serve product is an affordable indulgence; it’s a format that encourages trial. It’s a lot easier to justify a $4 to $10 for an RTD than a $30 bottle of wine that you’re not sure you’re going to like. 

Now let’s talk about flavor. Flavor is the No. 1 attribute younger audiences look for when deciding what to drink — some 75-80% of respondents in our study said flavor was extremely or very important in their purchasing decision. When you think about it, this also makes sense: Younger audiences have grown up with virtually limitless flavor options. Think about the menu Starbucks, or the refrigerator cases at Whole Foods — or even at convenience stores. The variety of flavor options is incredible. 

In our survey, one criticism of wine that we kept encountering was that it didn’t deliver on the flavor goods — comments like wine is too acidic, too sour, too bitter. Or “I don’t like the flavor.” We also saw comments like “I wish wine came in more flavors” with mentions of fruity flavors like raspberry and strawberry. And that’s starting to play out in wine product innovation.

The No. 1 new wine SKU in the U.S. last year was Stella Rosa Pineapple & Chili, according to Nielsen data. It’s a $12-15, Moscato-based, semi-sweet, semi-sparkling wine with natural flavors, and very low ABV of just 5%. This is a brand that over-indexes for Gen Zs and younger Millennials. And 27% of their sales come from people who are new to the wine category — so they’re successfully onboarding new people to wine. How are they bringing new consumers to wine? They’re leveraging the incredible popularity of cocktails in the U.S. — it’s the wine version of a spicy margarita.

That's a fascinating innovation to me because it represents an expansion of the potential market to people who don't like the taste of wine. However, they might eventually like wine — if products like Stella Rosa are their on-ramp. Now I know that a lot of wine aficionados will cringe seeing products like these flavor- and sugar-enhanced wines on the market, but I don't. I want to give Stella Rosa a big round of applause for bringing new consumers into the wine category. Because once they’re in the category, we can then pull them along the wine journey over to more complex and interesting wines.

And this new flavor innovation is not just happening at the entry-level. On the higher end, we also see brands like Wonderwerk, an LA-based natural wine company that infuses its wines with yuzu and hibiscus to make sessionable wine-based drinks (i.e. at a lower 7% ABV, for all-day drinking). These retail for about $25 a bottle. I just did a Business of Drinks episode with Wonderwerk's co-founder Issamu Kamide, and they can’t keep these products in stock. They’re doubling sales every year while their winemaker friends at more traditional wine companies are seeing losses.  

TOM: Is this a dip in sales that will be corrected or is this a real correction that will leave the industry permanently changed?

ERICA: Looking at the bigger picture, I’m encouraged by data showing that overall consumption rates of ethanol are not, in fact, dropping. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism has consumption data going back to 1970. Per capita consumption peaked in the early 1980s and bottomed out in the late 1990s. According to the most recent data, we’re about in the middle. But wine consumption is another story.

Wine has a real image problem. It has lost much of its “coolness” factor. In our survey, we asked younger people what they drank at a number of occasions. Wine ranked lower than I would have thought. What did they reach for at parties? Hard seltzer and beer — over wine. What did they drink to treat themselves? Both audiences said soft drinks, RTDs, and canned cocktails — all over wine. 

One key challenge is that most wine marketing is out of touch. It has lost the narrative. I see countless social media feeds filled with static images of vineyards and bottles and empty tasting rooms. Every other bev alc and CPG category shows people having fun with their products. Why don’t we? From Coca Cola to Casamigos Tequila, most drinks advertisements focus on people having fun — or at least enjoying the product. Is the wine category allergic to fun? Taking a look at all of those deserted vineyards and tasting rooms, it would certainly seem so.

In short, we need to do a better job or articulating how wine fits into peoples’ life. There are precedents! One wine brand that does this well is Barefoot. Pull up their marketing campaigns and social media feeds for a case study on how to work Barefoot into customers’ lives in creative ways. The brand creates countless Barefoot moments — from afternoon wine walks to football watch parties — where the products are featured front and center in settings where people seem to be having fun. 

Another brand that does this well is Wente Vineyards, a 140-year old winery in Livermore Valley, in California. Until recently, the brand had a consumer mix that was common for a long-running premium wine brand — dominated by Boomers, aged 60 and up. But in the past three years they engineered a flip in that customer demographic. Fifth-generation vintner and marketer Aly Wente led the charge to shift its marketing strategy to focus on younger audiences, and the effort has paid off in spades. Wente’s sales are now dominated by Millennials and Gen X, with Boomers in third place.

We did a Business of Drinks masterclass episode discussing how Wente did it. The biggest takeaway was that they developed their lifestyle programming, like music events and casual tastings at the winery. And they focused their social media accounts on real people enjoying Wente wines — the people behind the brand clinking glasses, groups of friends sipping at the lounge, crowds at the music events. These images clearly show consumers how the brand fits into their lives. 

That’s the type of marketing I’d encourage more wineries (and regions!) to embrace to stay relevant. The competition for share of sip is fierce. And it’s only going to get more so.  

TOM: I can’t defend social media marketing that shoots out staid pictures of pretty bottles. It’s redundant at best, Erica. But those pictures and videos of vineyards that don’t have people in them partying do, it seems to me, represent something very important about wine that separates it from bourbon, RTDs, seltzers, beer, etc: it is the product of an agricultural lifestyle that revolves around the cycle of the seasons. No one thinks of beer and considers the harvest. No one considers a seltzer and wonders about the PLACE where it was made. But I think wine has a powerful advantage in its distinctly agricultural connection. Hillsides covered in vineyards, rolling hills dotted with vineyards, small hamlets, and villages surrounded by vineyards… none of these things are wine. But they are the necessary precursor of wine that no other alcoholic beverages possess. What do you make of this quality associated with wine and efforts to market the beverage?

ERICA: Certainly that place-based appeal is one aspect of wine. But that’s only part of the story, and it seems to resonate more for older audiences.

What I see performing well in marketing and social media campaigns for younger audiences is people-driven lifestyle content — videos and images that convey the “vibe” or experience of the brand. The Wente case study couldn’t be more clear on this front. They transitioned from static vineyard and bottle images to people-driven content, and saw a massive demographic shift — younger audiences started engaging, which ultimately translated to younger buyers. That's a bit of oversimplification — they did several things, but if I were a wine brand seeking younger buyers, I’d pay attention to that case study.

Where vineyard images have their place is as an aspirational backdrop for Instagrammable content. That’s the conceptual shift I see taking place. Developing a relationship with a brand is bigger than buying or consuming any one product — it’s about engaging with the brand to attain their aspirational lifestyle.

So what previously worked on social channels for Boomers and Gen Xers (at least for me!) was to showcase pristine, beautiful places and things. The perfect vista. The gorgeous bottle. We were drawn to luxury products in a different way. That’s just not what works for younger audiences. They want to visualize themselves immersed in experiences, like the buzzy patio scene at Wente. 

In general, I think we rely too much on the concept of place in wine marketing. Do younger consumers care that much about where their wine comes from? Apparently not. In the survey I did, some 70% of Millennials and Gen Z drinkers said they felt neutral about or found region unimportant in their decision-making on wine.

 TOM: That’s a little depressing to hear…the 70% who don’t care about the idea of place. It almost sounds as though a good marketer with a talent for Instagram posts could sell some watered-down Everclear and Food coloring as long as the social media appealed. But, I’m also not terribly surprised either. 

I'm wondering now how someone like yourself with so much experience observing the alcohol industry feels about industry-wide marketing efforts. On the one hand, it feels like the entire wine industry could use a nice generic marketing effort, likely aimed at young GenX through GenZ that focuses on social media and influencers. Such things are notoriously difficult to find agreement upon across the tiers, but especially across price points. What’s good for the 20 largest U.S. wine companies probably isn’t good for the 90% of wineries. Nevertheless and assuming you could convince enough members of the wine industry to the tune of, say, $10 million, what would Erica Duecy recommend this coalition do with those funds, and towards what end?

ERICA: It’s clear to me that wine needs a rebranding campaign. I’m talking about a complete overhaul of the industry’s messaging strategy. The same old playbook is not working, and it’s time to get creative. Heck, if the Democratic Party can align and rebrand around the theme of joy, then the wine industry too can pull off such a transformation.

The campaign would be built around key themes that are missing from a lot of current wine marketing. These would include connection — meaning connections between people (friends, family, wine professionals in various roles, etc). And also around relevance — how wine fits into people’s lives, from everyday moments to celebratory occasions.  These key pillars would be built out into strong marketing messages, and eventually come to life in digital and IRL activations. 

Importantly, the campaign needs to break the mold of most wine marketing — it needs to give wine a true facelift. To make wine fresh and exciting for new generations of consumers. Sound impossible? 

It’s not.

Allow me to present Exhibit A: Bordeaux Wines new-ish global campaign, Join the Bordeaux Crew. This is hands-down the best effort I’ve seen from anywhere in the wine industry to attract new consumers to wine. Mind you, CIVB is a huge organization — some 5,600 companies, including winegrowers, wine merchants, and brokers. But they all came together around a shared vision to transform consumer perception around Bordeaux wine — from staid and secretive to innovative and approachable. 

So far, the rebranding has been incredibly effective. It absolutely feels fresh and exciting — check out the Instagram feed. The campaign is largely aimed at drawing in new consumers, showing them how wine is relevant and why it’s enjoyable. And they've built in a secondary layer of trade outreach, developing a new crop of Bordeaux advocates at events like Texsom. How did they achieve it? I spoke recently with Florence Bossard, the CIVB’s global marketing director. As expected, it was a herculean effort to unify CIVB members behind the campaign, but they made it happen. And the CIVB was very smart about engaging a TikTok-focused creative agency to speak in the language younger consumers understand: short, snappy videos. They're also meeting younger drinkers where they're at — literally, popping up at music festivals and other events.

The results have been significant, Florence told me, with a notable lift of the Bordeaux wine “brand” across listening platforms and engagement analytics — and a resulting sales bumps for Bordeaux wines in the markets where the campaign has launched. That’s one model to follow. 

Hey, if wine industry stakeholders in the U.S. are interested in developing a similarly impactful campaign, give me a ring. I’d love to help!

TOM: I like this idea vis a vis Bordeaux. On the one hand we get a contemporary messaging process without abandoning the intrinsic things about Bordeaux (and wine) that make it so unique and different from other competing beverages.

You’ve been very generous with your time and ideas. I want to end this with some quick snap questions requiring quick snap answers that will give the Fermentation readers a bit more insight into Erica Duecy

1. The Duecy Vacation: City, Beach, or Mountains?

2. Favorite Film?

3. Favorite City?

4. Last Meal?

5. All time favorite wine writer?

ERICA: OK, here goes.

1. The Duecy Vacation: City, Beach, or Mountains?

At the moment, I'm doing a lot of skiing, and I've recently taken up fly fishing. So I'm mountain-leaning for the first time! I'd always been a city vacationer before, where I'm generally hunting down iconic examples of local food and drinks, like the best bagels in Montreal (St-Viateur) or the top cocktails in Reykjavik (Jungle).

2. Favorite Film?

My favorite film is probably Inception, directed by Christopher Nolan. I love his films because they tackle mind-bending topics, like Inception's plot that the subconscious can be infiltrated and manipulated via shared dreams to affect a desired outcome. In this vein, I also enjoy sci-fi (District 9, Project Hail Mary) and apocalyptic fiction (like Leave the World Behind, The Road, Station Eleven — all of which had film adaptations, but the books were so much better). 

3. Favorite City?

It would have to be New York City — I've lived in the area for more than 20 years, and would find it hard to move away. I'm constantly surprised by its churn and change. New scenes and subcultures and restaurants and shows and people in a steady stream. Its more of a living, breathing organism than a collection of buildings. NYC never gets old. 

4. Last Meal?

A greatest hits of my favorite NYC haunts: Dante's classic Negronis; Buvette's anchovy toasts; Le Bernardin's pounded tuna and foie gras; I Sodi's fried artichokes and 26-layer lasagne; Cote's caviar-topped Wagyu beef tartare.  Pair it all with wine selected by Pascaline Lepeltier of Chambers. For dessert, a slice of icebox cake from Billy's Bakery. And a digestivo round of gougeres and rare Cognacs at Brandy Library.

5. All time favorite wine writer? I'm going with a contemporary choice — Ray Isle. There's no one in the biz who works harder to help consumers understand how wine fits into their lives. His picks in Food & Wine and Travel & Leisure are always accessible, affordable, and delicious. Plus he's a hell of a storyteller. 
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